Session Start: Sun Jan 27 10:46:10 2008 Session Ident: Heimdallr 10:46:13 hello Heimdallr 10:46:28 Hello 10:46:33 read my PM from a while back? 10:46:53 I am pretty sure I read all of them. 10:47:00 the one with the corresponding IPs 10:47:06 10:46:38 * Dns resolving iro.arienai.com 10:47:06 - 10:47:06 10:46:38 * Dns resolved iro.arienai.com to 208.68.94.29 10:47:06 - 10:47:06 10:46:43 * Dns resolving irc.openkore.com 10:47:06 - 10:47:06 10:46:43 * Dns resolved irc.openkore.com to 208.68.94.29 10:47:06 - 10:47:06 10:46:49 * Dns resolving bibian.ath.cx 10:47:06 - 10:47:06 10:46:49 * Dns resolved bibian.ath.cx to 208.68.94.29 10:47:12 yes I did 10:47:15 i'd like to elaborate, if you care that is 10:47:23 certainly go on 10:47:29 although i'm pretty sure someone from you does, since you've banned Dishonru too 10:47:32 alright 10:47:51 http://iro.arienai.com the serverwatch is run by a person named Thul as it reads on the site too 10:48:02 ops, it says offline now 10:48:20 either way, the person coincidentally also runs irc.openkore.com and bibian.ath.cx 10:48:39 one is the irc server for the openkore devteam, the other is a copy of the daily builds of openkore 10:49:02 the person named Bibian is an openkore developer and admin 10:49:11 who is no other than Thul 10:49:28 there used to be a female monk named Arienai in Entranced, not sure if you can check on this stuff 10:49:43 who namechanged subsequently to Thul and is a champ since 10:50:16 he also botted the char as a monk, but that's besides the point i guess 10:51:21 It was looked into and handled this last week. 10:51:37 oh? 10:55:26 there was another issue 10:55:57 if you are tired/busy, i'll leave it for another time 10:56:36 There isn't a better time to be honest. 10:56:41 k 10:56:54 it's the issue about buying kafra boxes for zeny 10:57:17 i know personally that the rule was made because of the chinese that used the chargeback fraud 10:57:23 yeah people should do it. 10:57:27 shouldn't* 10:58:03 its not supposed to be a legal way of buying zeny. But certainly the chargeback issue forced a resolution. 10:58:27 i see 10:58:32 i wonder about that though 10:58:37 i'll draw you a comparison 10:58:51 since i've recently started playing eve-online 10:59:07 RMT is frowned upon there like in MMO, or well most other western ones 10:59:37 but you can legally buy and sell game time cards/codes and legally trade characters too for ingame currency 10:59:38 If RO was designed with the premise of RMT allowed it would be different I know several that do allow it, even facilitate 11:00:09 well, isn't kafrashop kinda hinting at it that trading shop items for zeny should be allowed? 11:00:22 i mean not everyone is well off in real life, but may have considerable wealth ingame 11:00:38 and the opposite, not everyone has much wealth ingame but is wealthy in real life 11:01:02 I agree, I know of several persons in various games that made a fortune by the rules of the game. 11:01:03 and in the end it doesn't matter who buys or sells, you as in gravity is the winner because you get real money for the trades 11:01:52 One thing that has to be there is a degrading of the value of items, so they have to be replaced constantly. Also there needs to be a method where the hosting company is shaving a bit off the top with every transaction between players. 11:02:13 I could imagine an RO with such a system, but it is an RO that I wouldn't want to paly in. 11:03:05 i think kafrashop itself already stepped past the line 11:03:23 look at euRO, they are doing fine without it, and infact bring WoE:SE to their server with their next update 11:03:33 yes and no, the kafra is money to the company to get a little bit extra for their game play. 11:04:09 We aren't putting a game tax on every zeny trade between players but then only selling zeny from the website. 11:05:12 Certainly it is a bit different than it was before but it isn't nearly the same as allowing players/farmers to make a living off of a product. 11:05:33 The liability issue that comes up if we let it happen on purpose is enormous. 11:05:40 hmm 11:06:05 but selling kafraboxes for zeny doesn't gain $ to anyone else than you(gravity) 11:06:25 I don't want to have to print out IRS statement for all the rich people in game saying that they have a net worth of 6,500 dollars on this character which is a 50% growth over last year 11:06:39 hahah 11:06:55 wouldn't that be hard eitherway because of all the foreign users? 11:06:56 You are correct in that the trade between 2 legit players isn't a huge issue. 11:07:41 But we can't make our rules and policies protecting them and us, all about the "good players" we have to set up scenarios where the worst element is at work. 11:08:36 Unfortunately with the RMTers they simply found the loop hole that not only made them tons of money, it cost us lots of man power dealign with it as well as costing us direct money in penalties from the chargebacks. 11:09:08 there is one solution you could make to this really 11:09:21 facilitate the gifting service via a website interface 11:09:34 That is something that we all discussed. 11:09:50 Along with a secure way of being able to gift someone subscription time. 11:10:07 the later would be especially awesome :) 11:10:11 But the issue is still, the person could Chargeback and suspending someone who is quitting 11:10:32 i wonder how other companies deal with this chargeback issue 11:10:35 and having to take away a "gift" is very draining on limited resources 11:10:56 think with paypal it could be prevented? since it's a debit system 11:11:06 About the same way, their causes may be different but solutions are different. 11:11:12 Most don't allow PP 11:11:28 PP isn't debit it is a creditting 11:11:53 but you can't issue chargebacks? 11:11:55 if you don't care if the PP account is shut down you can rack up very high debts 11:12:03 ah 11:12:40 And charging 10k in one day then immediately charging back via PP before the money has changed hands officially. 11:12:56 are chargebacks still as prevalent btw as they used to be during the opening months of kafrashop? 11:13:04 but after the service is rendered is how companies/persons get screwed. 11:13:30 No they aren't, mostly due to the draconian limit we put on it. 11:13:51 Sadly it limits players that otherwise would give us money though 11:14:04 But it is the cost of us protecting ourselves 11:16:22 alright 11:16:26 another issue 11:16:30 or rather request 11:16:55 the upcoming pvp tournament sounds very nice 11:17:16 from what i gather though, it will be RWC rules strictly, right? 11:17:28 which isn't a bad thing at all 11:17:32 We are going to try and run it that way. 11:18:09 except that i know for fact that four of the attending teams practice pvp with woe settings on another server 11:18:34 i won't name them, but obviously this will give them an edge at it, since they have the ideal environment 11:18:48 but i don't want to incriminate them, rather i'd ask if you could level the playing field 11:18:56 it'd be something rather easy 11:19:13 like turning one of the pvp rooms, prontera or morroc for example into pvp with WoE settings enabled 11:19:26 If the stuff is set up early we may be allowing them to practice on Sakray. 11:19:51 But right now we are still setting up the accounts and the rooms, may not be possible to have it ready prior. 11:19:59 i'm probably on one of the teams, or rather i practice with them often (Maelstrom's), hence why it concerns me 11:20:35 well, i'm sure that flipping a switch for one of the already available pvp-rooms wouldn't be that hard, or would it? 11:20:36 The WoE setting PVP room isn't a bad idea though, sadly we can't change live servers like that on a whim. 11:20:44 it's ok if it isn't live 11:21:00 we'd have ample time even if you switched it next maintenance 11:21:37 tbh we have tried "other" server too briefly, but it just isn't the same 11:22:20 either the server denizens are complete morons, or there aren't enough able players going around to form an opposing team 11:22:37 but a room switched on the mainservers to woe would remedy this fast 11:25:37 I will discuss this with everyone, changing a current can't happen, but using a disabled map is maybe feasible. 11:26:02 looking forward to it, thanks :) 11:30:56 one more question 11:31:09 can i quote you on any of this? 11:32:03 i'd rather not, as I have no idea how much of that will happen, I will bring up the issues of course, but I have no idea if there is a reason why we haven't done it already. 11:32:31 Getting the communities hopes up doesn't work well when there is red tape involved. 11:33:05 what would you be wanting to quote me on? 11:33:14 the boxes gifting thing is a pretty hot topic in certain circles 11:33:22 that'd have been the only one 11:33:35 but i guess that's the most touchy subject too at the same time 11:33:55 Well it is something that we discussed, but a system is either too complicated or doesn't actual offer the protection we need it to. 11:34:33 or it would have to have a long delay on it to prevent the chargeback 11:34:42 ofcourse any quote would go to irowiki, not to iROF 11:35:35 and it's more about discussing the prospects with Blueness, Resplendent, Doddler and other #iROwiki chat regulars 11:35:41 You can tell them that it is a system that we discussed but no conclusive solutions were found to the issues that gifting has. 11:35:51 alright 11:36:24 what was the solution to the iro.arienai.com / irc.openkore.com thing btw? 11:36:30 or does that remain a secret? 11:37:49 it isn't something that is an internal policy rather than a public issue. 11:38:40 what does that mean? 11:38:40 xD 11:39:33 Will there be any big postings by us regarding it?No. it is just another investigation that is part of what we do to keep the bad people from hurting the game. 11:39:49 We don't like bots. 11:41:41 does that mean the person's char gets silently banned? 11:42:16 not unless they were doing something illegal. 11:42:37 Which we do investigate for. Session Close: Sun Jan 27 19:10:08 2008